Comments on Stabilized Effort Scope: So just why is SS so "broken", Rilgon?

Ya know, a loooong time ago when BM was first comi...

2008-04-30T00:51:00.000-05:00

Ya know, a loooong time ago when BM was first coming out as the new hip spec, somebody whose name I forgot made a post on the forum about how he hated the spec. The post was quickly buried by everybody else, but he posted one last thing in that thread where he said something along the lines of "For you Marksman hunters who understand... stay strong."

For months and months I haven't forgotten that post and I've kept wondering "Understand what? What's he talking about? What's this secret that the die-hard Marks hunters know?"

But... thanks to this post you made... I think I understand now.

Now I love Beast Mastery and heck, I'll admit, I love Serpent's Swiftness because it makes me feel like some frantic machine gun on a truck going 100mph and I personally find that fun. It's sorta like a drug ya know?

But you've made tons of good points in this post and certainly given me a lot to think about. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

And enjoy your non-WoW life =( /farewell

Thank you for explicitly identifying yourself as o...

2008-04-29T17:08:00.000-05:00

Thank you for explicitly identifying yourself as one of the people I mentioned in the post.

Way to hide your profile, by the way. But, then again, someone who goes shit-posting on people's blogs has no honor to begin with, so why would I expect you to actually show your identity?

Frankly, sir, you bore me. You decry all those who...

2008-04-29T15:31:00.000-05:00

Frankly, sir, you bore me. You decry all those who wish to be better at their roles by speccing into the most powerful DPS spec and yet you provide little justification beyond "they didn't really do the research."

See, the thing is, they did. That's why their putting out lots of damage, and, make no mistake about it, that is a Hunter's role. We can't heal, we can't tank, that means we DPS.

I've been playing my Hunter from December 2004. I've raided with him up to early Naxx in vanilla, and now I'm in Black Temple.

I leveled him to 60 as Marks, back when it was the only viable hunter tree - it did the most dps, and had the best talents.

When patch 1.7 came out I was one of those 21/30 noobs you mention. Not because I followed the pack, but because it did the most DPS. I liked Marks, but I saw no reason to gimp my DPS.

When 2.0 rolled around and Marks seemed viable again, I tried it. I missed it, so I specced Marks again and leveled to 70 with it. It was okay. I downed Kara and Gruul with it.

I was also PvPing at the time, in arena, and after the trinket change that nerfed our traps, I decided to go Big Red Kitty. I was reticent, I loved Marks, but doing well was more important to me than holding on to a spec that made playing no fun.

The same goes for raiding. BM simply does more DPS, which makes it more fun.

The point is that WoW is a dynamic game that continually changes. There is always a "best" spec because perfect balance is impossible. Instead of whining about how you want BM nerfed or Marks fixed, how about you do what you have to fill your role. Or reroll.

Besides, who knows what's coming in WoTLK. Marks may well be on top again. Who knows? But really, stop bitching. It doesn't do anyone any good.

Interesting read. I have to admit when I first hea...

2008-04-29T13:26:00.000-05:00

Interesting read. I have to admit when I first heard about this post I was skeptical that it would be the typical MM vs. BM rants that happen way to often in the forums.

I think many times people miss the message you are trying to get out and only concentrate on the rhetoric. And as you said, the trolls are out in force (believe me, have my own personal ones - lol)

However, looking back. I think I agree with thehuntress in part.. I think by taking the focus off of BM and SV and what they bring to the table, maybe continue to highlight that we lack really anything to bring (other than skill). I don't say BM hunters aren't skilled, I know plenty that are, but I will say that many more Unskilled hunters are BM by default. That's a sad state in itself.

As for taking the game back? Nah.. let's keep it moving forward and I'm hoping as you that MM will become a recognized spec viable for raiding. Until that time, we're the underdogs here and will need to continue express our desire to Blizz to help improve the spec.

And as for Arena/PVP being the choice for MM?? If I was a BM or SV hunter I'd be just as discouraged by NOT being viable in that area. Imagine! Having to respec from a beloved BM to MM just for arena? Especially if one has put in literally months, sometimes years of /played time to master being a SV or BM hunter only to have it swiped away.

I think that's the crux and hurts the most for us MM hunters. At least for me.

I guess enough here. As always, you keep it interesting. :)

Well written, Rilgon.

A fun observation I'v...

2008-04-29T12:47:00.000-05:00

Well written, Rilgon.

A fun observation I've noticed just from people running damage meters is that as a MM hunter I am able to keep up with all the other classes whose damage scales with their gear. I wish I could see some accurate WWS/Recount files to confirm or debunk this hypothesis (and fall into my sad little depression if my gathering of observational data is wrong). I've beaten our BM hunters a few times (mainly on Azgalor), but no, there is no competition with SS. So while MM does not do the best hunter damage, we do have competitive damage output.

Just to comment on the first comment up there: There is no no difference between the specs in pet management. I value my pet as MM as much as I do BM, just for different reasons. While more emphasis is placed on the pet in BM doesn't mean that I disregard it as MM. I have not changed how I manage my pet dealing with this stint as BM than I did as MM. In fact, I'm pleased I learned pet management as a MM hunter for the unfriendly boss fights so I was prepared while I am BM.

The list up there changes very little between a raiding MM hunter and a raiding BM hunter, but I've definitely noticed a decline in the multitasking I have to do as BM. The only positive note I had was that I didn't have to run out of fear range during Archimonde when TBW was up - I liked that.

Kuddos again on a good post, Rilgon.

"Another wonderful theory I've heard petitioned is...

2008-04-29T08:24:00.000-05:00

"Another wonderful theory I've heard petitioned is for a talent in Survival that rids the Hunter of Intellect-based mana altogether and forces every bit of Mana-related mechanic for the Survivalist to drive from their Agility."

Dat be me :)

Thay was an excellent summary of the flaws inherint; and a good read too.

You know, I kinda feel sorry for you Ril, having nothing to truly boast about in a group; no FI, insane speed or absurd agi stacking. (That's not an insult, it's a comment on Marks and how flawed we are.) I could ramble on here, but I prefer raving at the masses. Gives me more fuel.

Hi there. New reader to your blog here. Just wante...

2008-04-29T05:26:00.000-05:00

Hi there. New reader to your blog here. Just wanted to give you props for writing a very unique blog, on a very unique spec.

I am sorry to say that I am one that goes with the crowd. I started a hunter not long ago, and spec'ed BM because that is what I found to do the most damage, and easiest to level. But just like you said in an earlier post about a lot of hunters out there, I have always 'longed for the freedom of MM'. That line you wrote really hit the spot.

It's not that I haven't tried. I spec'ed MM numerous times while leveling, but found that the dps I generated was far less than what I had hoped for, and the CC abilities just weren't any good. In comparison, BM has the ability to do all that and more.

I used to play a mage and priest before this hunter, and I feared them from range because of the damage they could do. But now, it makes me very sad to know the spec is so flawed.

I for one have given up on Blizzard making chances to benefit anyone (other than warlocks). But it's good to know there's someone like you who campaigns to make MM better. Stay focused, and I hope you will succeed one day.

Shlutty

Also posted on the thread in the Hunter forums, bu...

2008-04-29T02:47:00.000-05:00

Also posted on the thread in the Hunter forums, but because that will get buried in the usual crap:

Excellent read, Rilgon.

You'll have to forgive me if I keep our debate on the Hunter Forums rather than commenting on the post itself. I hope to bring more hunters into our debate, especially as I will likely be up most, if not all, of the night.

I do not feel that Serpent's Swiftness is the only reason a BM hunter is brought to the raid. While yes, it gives us a considerable amount of DPS, in my raiding experience, it is Ferocious Inspiration that is the magic talent.

My current guild has 3 hunters, and unless one does not log on, we all get invited. We are all BM hunters. Our raid leader will either (a) Stack us all together with either two of the best, or two of the worst, DPSers. (This depends on the nature of the fight, and how the tank's TPS is affected. If it's a fairly normal fight, we got the top 2 DPSers and boost them a little more, or if the top 2 are too limited by the threat cap, we get the 2 worst and help bring them into line.) or (b) We're split among 3 different groups to boost raid DPS overall.

While I can understand your frustration that MM has been relegated to an Arena spec, when Arena's are the bane of the game, I feel that you unduly direct that frustration to the BM spec, as it is often seen as "easy mode" because our speed, and the mana problems inherent in the class, limits our rotation down into one that is easily transferred into a macro that can be spammed blindfolded.

We also have other things to bring to the table in our survivability.

Take for example, Bloodboil. Our raids never hesitate to take 3 hunters, but mages we are wary of because of their nature as a Glass Cannon.

Every class has it's imbalances, and ours are just a tad more obvious (physical DPS with a mana pool, Steady and Aimed shot being subject to spell pushback, etc)

You state that the reason why the GCD is unaffected by physical haste is Serpent's Swiftness. While it may be a factor, I do not think it is the only one.

Spell casters are unable to dual wield their spells as DPS warriors, Enhancement shaman, and rouges can dual wield their primary weapons. One can seriously argue that these dual wielding melee classes are the reason that the GCD is unaffected by haste because they do not need it. Pulling down the GCD so a rogue can get more specials (and thus more combo points and finishing moves) when they already have a secondary weapon to up their DPS would be, frankly, overpowered. Rogues are already top DPSers, and by limiting the GCD as Blizzard has done, it keeps them from being utterly impossible to touch.

You also cite the ease with which our shot rotation is maintained, and how many hunters brag about "watching tv while doing 1500 DPS".

But in truth, a good BM hunter will still be separated from the inexperienced. These differences just may be harder to spot, especially until you reach T6 content.

MH/BT are not pet friendly places. In SSC and TK, most fights it's just "send him in and forget" and toss off an occasional mend pet if necessary.

However, in MH/BT, a good BM hunter will praise the fact that their shot rotation is bound to a single, spammable key because they are watching, not a cast bar, but their pet's health bar. On many fights, a BM hunter needs to be obsessive about managing their pets, pulling out at the right moment, mending at the right moment, (and of course, watching your mana bar for the perfect percentage of mana to pop a Fel Mana Potion so that not a tick is wasted, but you still push the very edge of that line). All the while, staying out of AoE ourselves, MDing, keeping Scorpid up if necessary, keeping Hunter's Mark up if necessary, watching our health to pop healthstones, etc, and dealing with the various idiosyncrasies of the fight itself.

You say you want the class to be seen as more than just easy mode that any noob can play. But truly, how much harder is it to play a destruction warlock that spams a few curses then pounds Shadowbolt? Or a fire mage that hits Fireball and occasionally Scorch?

I feel that we require every bit of skill that a good healer or tank does to forcibly balance that which Blizzard has broken.